Time Immortal

Me: Dinosaurs and man did not co-exist.

You’re welcome to claim that I’m an unbeliever because of that, but I might point out something: I know my heart and my thoughts (you do not know my heart and my thoughts). I know the level of my devotion to Christ (you do not know the level of my devotion). I know what I believe (you do not know what I believe).

And if you want to debate the history, I’m game.

Young Earth Creationist: “Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God…” - Job 40:15-19 (NIV)

Me: What is the behemoth? Is it concretely identified as a reptile (which the dinosaurs were)? No, it is not. It is identified as a herbivore, muscular and sinewed, and as a creature which lives near a swamp/water. So it could be a dinosaur,but it could also be a hippopotamus, or an elephant, or perhaps even a rhinoceros. Arguably, the description of the tail might argue against this, but it should be noted that the word could be a euphemism for genitals — and in fact, in the original-language manuscript of Job, this is the more sensible interpretation of the passage.

In other words, behemoth might be any number of animals apart from a dinosaur. Why rush to the least-obvious conclusion and insist that it was a dinosaur?

YEC: “His tail sways like a cedar” — it has to be big. Nothing exists now meets that description; “behemoth” usually means it is just humongous. Come on man, it is as if you don’t want to believe dinosaurs were in the Bible…why not? I doubt the elephant ranks first, plus dinosaurs at least started out as herbivores.

Me: You’re ignoring what I said — I already addressed that objection. But a little expansion on the point can’t hurt.

Firstly…yes, some dinosaurs were herbivores. Some, however, were carnivores. We can tell as much by looking at their teeth. A herbivore has teeth rather like that of a human molar — flat, built for crushing. A carnivore has teeth rather like the human canine, or like the fangs of any number of modern predators — sharp, pointed, made for piercing and tearing.

I read some rather whimsical comments, in the past, suggesting that T-Rex was a herbivore — what a fantastic lie that is! Even looking at a Tyranosaur skull demonstrates that T-Rex was a carnivore — its teeth would be almost useless for chewing on plants, but they’d be excellent for latching on to prey. Small forearms don’t really enter into it — most predators eat their food on the ground, and few indeed use their claws/paws as an integral part of the eating process.

It’s not that I don’t want to believe that there were dinosaurs in the Bible — it’s that there aren’t dinosaurs in the Bible, plain and simple. Those reptile species died out long before humanity ever began writing down its histories and legends; indeed, the dinosaurs died out long before humanity even appeared on the scene.

If dinosaurs and man really co-existed, then we’d see indications of it in different archaeological sites that we’ve found the remnants of early human civilization in. We’ve learned from looking at the history of the Native Americans, especially, that people who live an early, tribal life make use of the world around them for tools and other things; we would expect to find examples of tools, weapons or jewelry made with dinosaur bones. Especially weapons! Some dinosaur leg bones are massive, and were likely very strong — they’d make excellent spears, don’t you think? And let’s not forget that a massive dinosaur leg bone would make a very excellent piece of building material, say…for a house’s roofing strut?

But we see no examples of any of this. Nor do we find depictions of dinosaurs alongside human beings in early cave paintings. And if one looks at historical depictions of Behemoth, one sees that Christians certainly made no connection between behemoth and a giant reptile throughout much of the time that there has been a Church.

More to the point, the term “sways” is a bit of a mis-translation. The relevant Hebrew word is more accurately translated as “extend”. In fact, in the original Hebrew, the description of the beast doesn’t seem to be describing its tail at all — given that we see mentioned the sinewy “stones” of the creature (read: testicles), the text would actually seem to be referring to the beast’s penis Don’t forget that English-language Bibles are translations of the original text of Scripture; the word “tail” is likely a euphemism.

At any rate, you didn’t answer my question: why is it so important to think that behemoth must be a reference to a dinosaur?

YEC: Because it is in the Bible,

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-trex.html

Enough said. What are you gonna believe: some wise crack in a school, or a Christian source? You are Christian, right?

Wait, you support the Pope…that pretty much denies Jesus right there. There is nothing Christian about the pope; he is an idolater, he lies, and he is a deceiver. Catholics have made up lies like Purgatory and Baptism (of infants?), and have even started wars (the First and Second World Wars). Additionally, the reason why so many Catholic priests have become paedophiles is because they are not allowed to marry, which is a falsehood. People are supposed to marry.

Me: Dinosaurs are nowhere mentioned in the Bible, not by name nor by “kind” (if you prefer the use of that term).

God fashioned me a handy brain in the process of making me, and He does delight in my use thereof. To that end, I am able to learn, to perceive, and to reason based on the arguments and evidences presented to me.

Now, as it so happens, I used to be quite the little dinosaur buff, and my knowledge of these fascinating creatures extends far beyond some “wise crack in school”. My home province, Alberta, has a large expanse in its southern regions called “The Badlands”, wherein numerous dinosaur skeletons — some near-complete — have been found. In addition to numerous trips there, I’ve studied many different resources and scientific journals on the subject — this is an area of natural scholarship that fascinates me, and while I’m no paleontologist, I believe I can speak to the issue of dinosaurs with some authority.

To that end, I have my doubts about your “Christian” source, not the least of which is that it fails to cite even one passage from Scripture in its supposedly Christian defence of several glaring errors (the most minor of which, I think, is that the author cannot tell the difference between the Albertosaur and the Tyranosaur).

For example: the arms of the T-Rex were indeed short. If you look at the pictured skeleton on the site, and try and imagine how the head and arms might move, there is no way that the T-Rex would have been able to reach, with its mouth, any item held in its hands. It would not have done well had it attempted to use those hands to manipulate branches, since their reach was so small. No, the T-Rex (not unlike the giraffe) would use its mouth and the length and articulation of its body to find food with.

Which brings us again to its teeth. Those are not the teeth of a plant-eater. If you want to see a herbivore’s teeth, look at the molars in the back of your own mouth; they are blocky, and more or less flat on top. If you want to see a carnivore’s teeth, look at the teeth of a lion. Now…which animal has teeth that more closely resemble those of a T-Rex? Your “Christian” source claims that the teeth would wear down if the T-Rex were constantly biting through flesh and bones…but this too is false, and we can observe as much in nature today. Alligators, crocodiles, and some species of predatory mammals all have jaws that are easily capable of biting through bone, and yet even into old age do not show measureable signs of tooth degradation. In many cases, that is because their teeth — unlike ours — are constantly growing; they periodically gnaw on things to sharpen and hone them.

Is not God’s design marvelous?

Your source also claims that “true” meat eaters are “smooth and sleek”. This is kind of a logical fallacy (look up “No True Scotsman” if you’re curious), and is also something of a patent falsehood. Alligators and crocodiles are not particularly sleek. Nor are they particularly fast — they rely on stealth and the murky water in catching their prey. In fact, many predators are not as fast as their prey; they either attempt ambushes and surprise to catch their prey, or else they prey upon the sick and the elderly in the herd (which are slower or have less stamina with which to flee).

As to the issue of the Pope, and my support for him meaning that I deny Jesus: how, exactly, is that the case? You claim that the Pope is not a Christian, that he is a liar and an idolater. You are engaging in an ad hominem attack here, which is typically indicative of a poor argument that you are attempting to hide behing a wall of insults.

But also…where is your evidence in support of these wild assertions? I hope you’re not going to throw some Jack Chick in my face here; Chick is not a credible source.

As to your assertion that the belief that we are not supposed to refrain from marriage is not supported by Scripture: what the heck is St. Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 7, then?

Look, I actually like you — you’ve got spirit. I think, along the way, you’ve been brought into a goodly number of falsehoods and untruths, perhaps by well-meaning people or perhaps by people who don’t mean very well at all (don’t know ‘em, can’t say). Be that as it may; I like your passion for Christ — it’s a commendable trait. But why do you mar it so, with these lies you tell? You do not even know Scripture well enough to know that celibacy is a Biblical teaching, and a condition of being highly praised by Paul.

Grace and I took her sister to see Pixar’s latest last night, and I have to say, O Reader: if you haven’t gone and seen it, go and see it. For my money, it’s probably the best Pixar film yet, and I wonder if it would be all that hyperbolic to say that it will hold that top spot in my mind for a goodly while. It’s rare enough to find a movie that is genuinely uplifting at a spiritual level, especially in the sci-fi/action genre of film (BSG often fits the bill, although it is a TV series rather than a motion picture), but Wall-E delivers that and more.

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Don’t be fooled into thinking this is a kid’s movie, either; WALL-E is age-independent. Because the characters are primarily robots (humans appear as well, but only in a supporting role), there is little in the way of dialogue — most of the comedy is physical/scenario-driven in nature, and will appeal equally to the young and the old (in fact, I suspect adults may enjoy it more than kids, in the same way that Looney Tunes are way more funny to me now than they ever were when I was ten).

It would also make for one heck of a date movie; I don’t think I let go of Grace’s hand for more than five minutes in total during the entire length of the movie. Not only is WALL-E a well-executed sci-fi story with equal parts comedy and well-paced action sequences, it is also a very romantic movie, and the budding relationship that emerges between EVE and WALL-E is amazing for its depth, the sweetness that characterizes it, its innocence, and how very real it feels, right down to how WALL-E makes a point of proudly showing EVE just some of the many trinkets “he” has collected in his 700 years of garbage compaction. Gents, I think (hope!) we can all recognize that little ritual?

(I remember showing Grace some of the many things — model planes, Lego constructs, books — I had collected when first we met.)

Finally, don’t but into the manufactured controversy that this is basically just with a cute face. Yes, it does depict a spoiled and desolate Earth, and yes, there is an environmental message at its core. But it ultimately is, I think, a message about stewardship of the Earth (c.f. Genesis 1:28-31), about the need for humanity to use (not abuse) Nature and the many resources of the world, and to make effective and responsible use of the technology at hand…in such a way that both humanity and Nature benefit. The message in WALL-E’s narrative is very much in favour of human development and the individual spirit, and praises the virtues of “get your hands dirty”-style hard work.

Now, after the jump, we’ll get into greater detail. If you don’t want spoilers, O Reader, do skip this next part.
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I’m not a convert to Catholicism, so I don’t get deluged with emails urging me to revert to the “true”, “Biblical” faith that I abandoned by becoming Catholic. So in that way, I can’t relate to what Mark Shea is talking about in this article.

But in the web forums I post to, I am unapologetic and open concerning my Catholicism, and I find that on a cycle almost as predictable as the cycle of atheistic commentators here at Time Immortal, I am periodically deluged by well-meaning, if misinformed, fundamentalists urging me to abandon the false, man-made teachings of Rome in favour of true, “Biblical” Christianity and the inerrant, preserved Word of God that is the King James Version of the Bible.

And in such matters, I take Mark Shea’s response as my own:

Almost every other day, it seems, I will open my e-mail and find something like this specimen (culled from my “deleted” file):

Dear Mark, just came from your Web site and have some questions. It sounds like you were a “Protestant” before becoming a Catholic? I don’t know which church you were in but I have to question whether you were ever taught the Word of God there? If you had been in a church which taught the truth concerning Baptism according to the Word of GOD and not the “traditions of men” you would have learned that not only does baptism NOT save nor “grant justification” but it is ONLY for those who ARE BORN-AGAIN by the SPIRIT of GOD by placing their faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST! It is to be symbolic of the new birth ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED by GOD as Romans 6 clearly teaches! PLEASE READ the Gospel of John and pray asking GOD to show you HIS TRUTH — HE LOVES THE WORLD and DESIRES TO SAVE the LOST — which we all are apart from the New Birth which IS FREELY offered to ALL! Please read and be saved! I will be praying for you in JESUS Name. Carolyn

You have to wonder what is going through the minds of people who write such stuff. What do they think they are accomplishing?

One is terribly tempted to reply: “The Word of God? What’s that? Never heard of such a thing. Is that, like, the Bible? We used to read something called a ‘Bible,’ I think, at our old Church. But that was an awfully long time ago.

“Boy, thanks for setting me straight. I have never ever ever heard before that Jesus Christ loves me and desires to save the lost with His free gift of grace! I always thought that I had to perform magical rituals to make God love me. But now that you have so thoughtfully set me straight, I see clearly that when that big black book we used to read in my old church-that-never-taught-me-the-Bible says ‘Baptism now saves you’ (1 Pet 3:21) what it means is ‘Baptism does not save you.’

“And thanks also for explaining that when Romans 6 says, ‘All of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death,’ and ‘We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life,’ this has absolutely nothing whatever to do with Baptism. I really appreciate your setting me straight on that as well.

“And finally, thanks for making me see that all that stuff in John 3 about being born again of water and the Spirit really means water and the Spirit are complete opposites.

“Golly. It is so good to finally — after all these years — have somebody who really teaches the Word of God clue me in. Who would have thought that all those years of studying . . . what’s that big black book called again? Ah yes! ‘The Bible.’ Anyway, who would have thought that all those years of studying the Bible could have left me so totally ignorant of what Scripture really means? Thanks ever so much for enlightening me.”

Yes, kind of facetious and tongue-in-cheek. But sometimes, that’s all one can do to respond to the misguidedly overzealous persons one encounters on this big, wide internet.

Does the Roman Catholic Church teaches that faith alone in Christ is all that is necessary for salvation?

Does the Roman Catholic Church not teach that according to Roman Catholicism, man cannot be saved by faith alone in Christ alone?

Do they not teach that a Christian must rely on faith plus “meritorious works” in order to be saved?

Is it essential to the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation that one participate in the Seven Sacraments, which are: Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance [also called Reconciliation], Annointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony?

These will be the first four questions answered in what I hope will become an ongoing series. In truth, I’d prefer to answer only the first three at this time, but there’s a problem with that. Catholic doctrine is not a series of atomic statements, but rather a unified body of teachings that build off of, play into, and complement and enhance each other. In other words, and more plainly put, it would be impossible to discuss what the Church teaches about salvation without discussing, at least in brief, the various Sacraments of the Church.

But before we begin, let’s look at the short answers to each of the above questions:

1. If you mean: do Catholics acknowledge sola fides as it is commonly articulated? No.
2. If you mean: do Catholics reject sola fide as it is commonly articulated? Yes.
3. No. A more appropriate term would simply be “merit.”
4. No, not all of those seven.

Now, let’s unpack those answers a little bit, shall we?

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So, I’m in Vancouver at present, celebrating Easter with Grace’s family there. Obviously, then, I’m not at my computer able to compose a suitable reflection on the idea of Easter and the meaning of the resurrection of Christ. Given a slightly less hectic week, I might have been able to compose just such a reflection, but as it is I will have to settle for re-iterating a point I made last year:

It is perhaps fitting to examine, then, how Easter completes the whole of the Christian year and unifies the faith. Christianity is not a series of beliefs, each atomically isolated from the others, but is rather one unified faith out of which flow many teachings that complement and enhance each other, and all of which are completed and joined by the pivotal historical event that is remembered this week: the death and resurrection of Christ. There is, within Holy Week, a smaller example of this same phenomenon, in our observance of Christ’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), His institution of the Sacrament of the Eucharist (Holy Thursday) and his re-statement of the need for the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation (also Holy Thursday), to His death (Good Friday) and resurrection (Easter Sunday). Within the week now almost over, the whole of Christianity and the whole of the Catholic expression of that faith finds its core, its foundation.

And to their credit, most Catholic churches emphasize the Sacraments during this season, as they ought…indeed, it is not by accident that adult baptisms take place during the Vigil Mass.

The need for baptism is, as noted, re-iterated by Christ in poignant fashion on Holy Thursday, when He washed the feet of the disciples. “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet,” our Lord taught, and as with everything Christ said there is a deeper message being conveyed in that teaching than just the necessity of personal hygeine. Baptism is our first washing, the Sacramental sign of the way in which we are cleaned by the Lord, and water is the symbol of cleansing which we use. I’ve always been mystified by Protestants who declare confidently that water baptism is not necessary for salvation; while it is doubtless true that God, in His mercy, welcomes into His Kingdom those infants which die before being baptized (but then, to what extent are infants capable of sin?), it is equally true all the same that God desires, and that Christ taught, that baptism is necessary.

Likewise, many churches offer special penetential services during Holy Week, and again they do well to do so, because Christ likewise commanded that we return again and again to be cleansed, and commissioned His disciples to forgive sins in His name, and through His grace. Confession — the Sacrament of Reconciliation — is necessary as well in a fully-lived Christian life. “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me,” Christ cautions Peter, following it up with the teaching outlined previously, and again the Lord is not here talking about personal hygeine. We too must seek to be cleansed of our sinfulness in Christ, and must do so repeatedly, just as in Hebrew custom the feet were to be washed regularly. If we do not seek that repeated cleansing, we too will have no share in Christ.

And of course, Catholic churches offer the Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Real Presence, the literal and truthful Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, which Christ Himself gave to us in His transformation of the Passover Meal into the Feast of the Lamb and the food by which all might know salvation.

All of those are elements, but they are all given their whole meaning not only in Good Friday, but in what we celebrate on Easter Sunday — the risen Christ, the resurrection, Christ (and, by extension, God’s) victory over death won for the sake of all mankind, that we too might be able one day to join the chorus of angels in glorifying God in the Kingdom that is to come. It is in Christ’s death and resurrection that the Eucharistic meal is given its meaning, its form, and its power, for as it marks Christ’s being broken and shedding blood for our sake, so Christ was actually broken, and did actually shed blood, for our salvation.

At the same time, it is in Christ’s death and resurrection that we are truly cleansed from our sinfulness, for in His death and resurrection Christ took upon Himself the full weight of all human sin — past, present, and future — and made it to die with him, that we too might be dead to sin and risen in Christ, just as he later arose in glory.

And just as water and blood poured from our Lord’s pierced side, so too do we baptise with water, that all who share in baptism might have a share in due time in the life that is to come, which Christ’s resurrection has secured for His faithful.

Everything ties together in this one week, and as I have said this is an atomic expression of the whole of Christian year, and the whole of the Christian faith, and the way it ties together as well.

Catholicism is a complete, whole, unified faith, the Christian faith among all Christian denominations out there, and the Church is the means by which God’s fullest revelation is given to humanity. It is my prayer, this and every Easter season, that more and more people will be called to conversion during this time and throughout the year. For the Church is the light, and in her is found freedom and salvation. All else is darkness.

Update: Welcome, Steynians!